Friday, September 23, 2011

Let's look at the source..

It is my belief that when someone is trying to convince me of something, one way of knowing if they are legitimate or not, is by looking at their actions. How ethical is this person? How consistent is this person? The actions of somebody can tell a lot about them. Now, nobody is perfect obviously. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. People have their moments of frustration and might display some immature behavior. But to me, the person or persons who continually show hypocritical behavior, immature behavior and downright rude behavior over and over again, are not people I would personally take seriously.
I have often seen this type of behavior coming from the group that is adamantly against homebirth.
They want to convince you not to give birth in your home, no matter what the reason may be, and if you decide not to listen to them, then you really just don't care about your baby's life. Example:

This is a response to someone who said their homebirth went well and the midwife was knowledgable enough to pick up on some breathing problems so the baby was taken to the hospital. There was no mention that the birth itself caused breathing problems, as we all know sometimes babies need some time in the NICU even when born with all the best technology around them. But this is the kind of judgment that people get for choosing homebirth.
The problem is, are the people who are judging us worthy of judging us? What kind of people are they that they can act so holier than thou? What do their actions reveal about them?
Well, here are just a few examples of their behavior.. Are these sensible, compassionate women? You be the judge....

And this is what they said about me for simply disagreeing that there is enough evidence to claim homebrth is dangerous... They got really angry at me for exposing the truth and even began to say I was lying and then banned me from their page..

But then they just want people to stop judging them..

Because they don't judge people, they just judge ideas..

And the kicker...

In all honesty, this just makes me sad. We are all mothers and women and we  probably have a lot in common when you take how we birthed our babies out of it. Remember, these are THEIR words and they need to own them. Are these the actions of women wanting to keeping mothers and babies safe?

*Update: Yes, these words were taken out of context and my response is, so what? I can't think of a single situation where I said things like this- no matter how horrible the people were. If you disagree with someone's actions, you attack the *actions* not the person. Any mature, reasonable adult would do that. Resorting to name calling and threats are signs of immaturity and cruelty. The majority of these words were taken from two separate posts. If I had spent the time going through numerous posts and taking screen shots of the *many* instances of ugly behavior, the results would be much worse than this. This is a only small example of what I have seen.
The screenshots were found here and here


  1. I see individual comments...what was the OP about? Do you have a link so we can go check it out?

  2. well you get a 1/2 star for your first attempt at a screencapping. but to make it effective you must post the whole thread- with your own words- otherwise there is no context. if they are so terrible you need to prove it fully, not half cocked. i have had "your side" say much nastier things to me for simply saying "i had my baby died at my homebirth" and i have FULL screencaps to prove it. you think "we" are so nasty? prove it.

  3. Bless your heart, Sammy.

    Now....why don't you post the entire threads, including the original post we were all commenting on, so everyone else can see it in their proper context?

  4. It makes you look oh so classy for not at least blurring their last names, just sayin'. And nice try on the screen shots, let's see them in context next time, mmmkay?

  5. You are all more than welcome to post a link to the facebook page where this all originated from. I doubt, however, that it is going to make you all look any better. I actually only took these words from 2 or 3 posts. If someone took the time to actually look through the facebook page or The Skeptical OB( another place they originated from) they would see behavior much worse than this. I was hoping that maybe by having a flashlight shined up on you, you all might decide to stop name calling. Unfortunately, that is not the case and nothing has changed. The truth is, it doesn't matter what the original link was, you are grown women, why do you find it necessary to say things like this about people? Remember, I was the one who was told I shouldn't have had children because I was sexually assaulted and therefore not capable of being a parent. DId I respond to that by calling you cunts or saying I hope someone shits in your mouth? It's sad behavior. You continually call me names and ban me from your pages ONLY because I disagree with you. I was civil 98% of the time. If I am so in the wrong here, why did you ban me and erase all my comments? I haven't called you names or been rude, I have only exposed the truth. You really cannot be angry at me for that, be angry at yourselves.

  6. No you responded by taking down the post and then hurling false accusations at someone else saying they said that. Are you planning on shedding light on the name calling on the other side of things? It's rather unfair of you to say it's wrong for people to name call on this side of the argument while making it like everything on the other side is all sunshine and roses and they never name call. If that's what your issue is then show the names that are being tossed around from the other side.

  7. Actually, that is not true. That person, who is part of your group, did admit she liked the comment that told me I shouldn't have had children.
    We are grown women and mothers. When someone name calls on one side of the argument that doesn't make it right for you to do the same and continue to do it, over and over again. The excuse that "they started it" is childish and silly, especially since only a few random people have said things as hurtful as I see you all write everyday. My hope in this is to end this nonsense of "sides". We are better than this! Yes, I am showing your behavior for two reasons. 1. I was hoping that by reading your own words in a different light, you may decide to change your ways. Once again, I was being naive in that respect. I don't think you have any desire to change or to raise the bar. And 2. that when people read the lies that you spread, they will take it with a grain of salt. The information you are giving out is harmful. Homebirth loss mothers are being harassed and bullied as well as anyone who disagrees with you. Someone has to at least attempt to put a stop to it.

  8. oh, LOL. Most NCBers thing lotus birth is gross, too. Nice try. Play again sometime!

    I guess if you can't argue with the facts, it's a lot easier to attack the people.

  9. So the above words are not attacks on people? Calling someone a whore, bitch, cunt, crazy, weird, a creep.. is arguing the facts? Every time I attempted to show you that you do not have the data to spout all over the internet that homebirth is dangerous, I was met with ad hominem attacks. Even now, the only response that any of you have to this information is that I am crazy. I am crazy for revealing what the scientific evidence really shows? Heather, that is just ludicrous. If you think my arguments are wrong, please show the evidence that disputes it. Thank you.

  10. Sammy, I wasn't going to comment, but I feel I should as this is just getting heightened to a level of conflict I'm not comfortable with. I'm sorry about the DIAF comment. I wish I could remember/find the context in which it was said, but in any case, I bear you no ill will and I wish I hadn't been disrespectful. Birth is a very hot and political topic, and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that, really, most of us have the same goal in mind (safe, healthy, happy mothers and children).

  11. Wow Miriam, it is so nice to actually have someone converse with me in a civil manner from your group. Sorry, if that came across sarcastically, I really mean it. I want safe, healthy, happy mothers and children too. I want people to be treated with respect, even if their views are different. I don't want any mothers to be judged for how they brought their babies into the world or whether they breastfeed or formulae feed. I think we can all agree that we love our children more than life itself! I fear that by spreading false information that homebirth is dangerous, without the real scientific evidence to back it up, it will lead to a lot of bullying, harassing and judging of homebirth mothers. We have many reasons why we choose homebirth and it would be appreciated if we were allowed to make that choice without being told we don't care about our babies lives. I have never once judged a woman on her mothering or childbirth choices, as I strongly feel it is not my place to assume, judge or criticize that decision. I am not going to screen shot every word you all say, I actually just want to provide accurate information.

  12. That's the thing. We DO have the data to show that homebirth is dangerous. As much as I'd like to see an RCT in homebirth, it is simply impossible to do it on a large enough scale for the stats to mean anything. Fortunately, even with the substandard care provided by lay midwives, infant death is a relatively rare occurrence. But that means you have to look at tens of thousands of births in order for the results not to be affected by random chance. There just aren't that many women who would be fine with either a homebirth or a hospital birth to have them randomly assigned to groups to study. That's why Johnson and Davis used the CDC. That's why Wax used the CDC. Its not perfect, but its the best indicator we have. Unlike the numbers you are spewing all over the Internet, mine are not made up. They're straight from the database, and I provided the raw data for anyone who wanted to check them. I'm sorry the numbers don't say what you want them to. I'm sorry you deleted the big brouhaha over on the Skeptical OB which precipitated all of this and where you acted like an asshat. And as for you being called crazy, quite frankly, you ARE acting like a crazy person. Following someone all over the Internet to refute them with made up numbers? CRAZY! And very stalker-esque I might add. Creating a website to attack people because you don't like what they say on the internetz? CRAZY! Continuing to publically insist you're right when you've been proven wrong over and over again? Yep, that's crazy too! So sorry you've been called that if you really aren't, but, really, you're not giving people much else to say about you.

    1. "I'm sorry you deleted the big brouhaha over on the Skeptical OB which precipitated all of this and where you acted like an asshat. "

      I'm sorry, WHO was the asshat again? Too bad, you all get caught in your lies over and over again...

  13. Heather you have just done a beautiful job of displaying your character. Please go back and read my post about the truth about homebirth. My numbers are more valid than the CDC numbers that you use because YOU are crunching your own numbers. The vbac numbers, the elective c-section numbers and the repeat c-section numbers are all valid and released by reputable sources. More reputable than a doula with a blog, I'm sorry to say. You need to take a deep breath and calm down. Your group is the one making blogs and websites all over the net attacking anyone and everyone with a different view. Your only source of debate is name calling, which you clearly displayed in your last comment. You're a mother Heather, how about setting a good example for your children? I have no choice but to refute the lies you all spread and to stand up for those you bully and harass. The bottom line, Heather, is that homebirth is actually safer than elective c-sections when there is no need, something I know your group fully supports and encourages. Did you know that when you had your second elective c-section in the hospital, you put your child at equal risk as a mother who chooses homebirth? Check my links, they will show you. My hope is that mothers stop worrying about how other mothers bring their babies into the world. It's not your place to judge. And I am saddened that as doula, you would have so much animosity towards other mothers.

  14. Sigh, get a life people.

    If you want to birth at home, go for it.

    If you want to birth in a hospital, go for it.

    If you want to birth in a barn, GO FOR IT.

    Just stop judging people both way, people are assholes on both sides of the discussion. There are nice people to but assholes are outweighing.


  15. Oh for Pete sake this is unbelievable Sammy. She only said that she liked said comment because someone else claimed she did too, but you are forgetting the part where she said she wasn't liking that you shouldn't have children, but that she read the comment and must have agreed with a point the commenter made so it was blah blah blah something I agree with blah blah blah. But YOU took down the thread so she couldn't even see what she you were talking about to properly defend herself. Get the story right if you're going to keep telling it Sammy. You took the comments down because you felt attacked or whatever and then you came and attacked and made it so no one could see what you were talking about. That is not fair at all. And as far as your argument goes about the we're all adults here and just because one side does things doesn't mean the other should is fine and dandy, but again YOU ARE NOT LISTENING. SO MAYBE IF I PUT IT ALL IN CAPS YOU WILL HEAR ME. IF YOUR OBJECTIVE HERE IS TO BRING LIGHT TO THE FACT THAT THIS SIDE NAME CALLS THEN YOU ALSO NEED TO BRING TO LIGHT THE NAME CALLING ON THE OTHER SIDE BECAUSE IT'S JUST AS CRUEL AND IF NOT MORE SO AT TIMES. PLUS THERE IS MISINFORMATION ON THE OTHER SIDE. FOR EXAMPLE GD IS MADE UP BY DOCTORS AND PRE-E CAN BE TREATED WITH HERBS AND GROUP B STREP CAN BE TREATED WITH GARLIC. THAT IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS! THERE ARE LIVES AT STAKE HERE. A LITTLE NAME CALLING IS NOTHING IN COMPARISON TO PEOPLE DYING!!! DO YOU GET IT NOW SAMMY. YOU CANNOT POINT FINGERS AND SAY YOU'RE WRONG FOR DOING THIS WHEN YOU KNOW THE OTHER SIDE DOES THE SAME THING AND SAY YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO BRING IT TO LIGHT TO MAKE US STOP UNLESS YOU ARE ALSO GOING TO CALL OUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT. AND SERIOUSLY GIVE THE WHOLE STORY!!!

  16. Hi there!
    I've never interacted on any of these blogs before. I've kept to myself, other than in a fb group. But I'm "The kicker" you posted here. Would love for you to show on your blog what I was refering to- a woman who had a c-sec who was abused, ridiculed and vilified by homebirth advocates who yes, are bored and lonely housewives with nothing better to do than put down others to make themselves feel better.

    How about some screen shots of the original postings so people know what the comments are refering to, instead of you making it look like random attacks :)

    Thanks for that.

  17. Wow. This is pathetic. How about people like Tanaya the Monkey Face mind their own fucking business ?

    Yes, context is important - but so is letting people make their own decisions and mistakes.

    Having to obsessively force your opinion on everyone and being completely aggressive and rude about it is a "personality disorder" of its own.

    I think both sides need to calm down, and just leave each other be. Nobody should have the right to tell another person how they should give birth.

    It just blows my mind that people are outright aggressive towards others for wanting to continue doing one of the most beautiful natural acts, like we've been doing for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

  18. Tanaya,
    I found the words you wrote to be rather ironic. Do you see the irony in what you said? Nine people also "liked" your comment, nine people that I am sure have never, ever " had a go at people to make themselves feel more superior than they really are". Your words were related to all the above comments. I often see people in your group get so angry and so upset for being judged by others. "Stop judging us! Stop telling us how to parent!" I always get a bit of a chuckle out of reading this because usually the next comment after that is something along these lines.." Ugh. That is soooo gross! Why would someone consume their placenta?? Idiots. And then they put their babies life at risk to be a birth goddess. Aaah! Why won't they give birth in the hospital?! Why do they want to feel the pain of natural childbirth? They are just dumb."
    Please tell me you see the hypocrisy in all this. It is so clear and so blatant, I am honestly really surprised you all don't see it. You really should have a little more insight into your own behavior before you all get angry at me for exposing it.

  19. They don't. They don't see anything other than their own way, and anybody that's smart enough to debate them is a selfish cunt who deserves to die in a fire. They need therapy because hating people that intensely is hazardous.

    <3ing you!

  20. I'm not angry at all. I post, knowlingly, on an open facebook group. Why would I get angry that words I post on a public media platform get screenshot and posted elsewhere? It just would have been nice for women to view just what I was responding to. A small protion of women, who vilified a woman because she went against her beliefs. I didn't say 'all women who believe differently'- I was refering specifically to these women that did those actions.

    I'm pretty quite myself. No, I don't have a go at people to make myself feel better. For me personally, I would feel worse being the cause of someone being upset. So my comment- not really so ironic.

    I also completely agree with your judgment comment. I admit I am judgmental, especially in regards to what women choose to ignore because it clashes with their personal wants. The important part here is what you do with that judgmental part of yourself.

    And yes, I stand by my comment and own my words. In my area, it is the bored and lonely housewives that most adopt these practices. They have previously had careers and are now at home, or they are new mums, losing contact with friends who are childless and moving on with their lives in other directions. They get bored so get online. Find sites pushing particular avenues and find a sudden passion (I don't mind that part at all. Everyone should have a passion). But when they take that passion and vilify women for not following it, even if it would have caused a fatal outcome, they do so to make themselves feel better than that person.

    The friend of mine who most sticks out in my mind as following this model has 5 children. She got very into the crunchy lifestyle, even having her 6th child UC. Now the children are all older, she decided to get back into her career. She is shocked how far her boredom took her during her at home years. She stands up and admits it's because she was bored, lonely and felt she needed to do something to feel she was superior to other women. She is just one example of many friends/women I know of that have done the same thing.

    The only difference between each 'group' is that the one you are posting about also welcome Natural birthers with no put downs- that I personally have seen anyway. Most of the women int here are the ones that had non-medicated births, breastfed longer than average and follow the AP lifestyle.

    I have been judged many times. I don't mind that at all. It's human nature.
    That is my speil. Phew. Good on you if you made it this far haha. Excuse my lack of grammar/ amount of typos- I've not yet had my morning coffee

  21. Monkey Face- there is a lot to address in your comment but I'll focus on one comment you said-from my experience the only "natural birthers" that are accepted by that group are the ones who bash homebirth with them or some other aspect of natural birth. It's funny actually, because I have noticed that unless someone puts some sort of snarky or critical line in their comment when they write about their natural birth or somehow support some aspect of natural birth, no one will like the comment. It just gets ignored. I think people have caught on to this and in an effort to be accepted, will throw in a line in the end similar to - but this does not mean that unmedicated births are great or anything. I actually have no idea why I did it in the first place and I will definitely get the epidural the next time. I'm not crazy or anything.
    And then those comments get lots of "likes" and high fives and the person is now accepted into the group.

  22. Context is not needed... Saying things like this is just awful... its not constructive, there's no meeting of the minds... just trying be offensive, or bullying... its never okay to stoop to that level... ever...